Saturday 22 November 2003
Topic: "Drugs"

PRESENT:

Rean
Kate
Steve
Phil


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[20:07] <a-steve> "Drugs"
[20:08] <a-steve> Under which there was the question:  "Why do people turn towards drugs as an answer?".
[20:09] <a-steve> I wonder if people always start taking drugs in search of an answer to anything in particular.  
                  If so, what are they trying to answer?
[20:09] <Rean> maybe to get away from everything around them?
[20:09] <Kate> Maybe they start drugs as an answer for life's problems?
[20:09] <a-steve> Rean, was that the thought implicit in the way you framed your question?
[20:11] <Rean> what do you mean?
[20:11] <Phil> Different drugs have different effects, so do people take different drugs for different reasons?
[20:12] <a-steve> I think that in both Rean's and Kate's questions just above is the tacit assumption that drug 
                  use is always bad.  That certainly is the philosophy behind the "Just say no" approaches and 
                  the "War on Drugs".  But would not an even-handed approach to the entire question of drug use 
                  also allow for some possibly positive effects from using drugs?  Please be clear that I am not 
                  about to start promoting drug use!
[20:12] <a-steve> Good, Phil.
[20:12] <Rean> well of course its always bad :)
[20:13] <Phil> It depends how you define drugs, I suppose
[20:13] <Phil> Is alcohol a drug? I'd say it is
[20:13] <a-steve> Various societies have differing attitudes toward drug use, and the same society can change its 
                  mind back and forth, as has happened at least in the USA.  So, I think that this entire subject 
                  is both very interesting and not at all trivial or easily dismissed with a few position statements.
[20:13] <Kate> I think alcohol in some cases is worse then pot
[20:14] <a-steve> I would not argue with your calling alcohol a drug.
[20:14] <Rean> well steve thats like the rastafarians, who believe that they should use marijuana, as part of their faith
[20:14] <a-steve> I would agree with Kate.  My own feeling is that particular drugs may well affect different people in 
                  different ways.
[20:15] <Kate> Well, if you go and get high on pot, you're mellowed out, and won't come home and beat your wife, but 
                  if you go out and get drunk, you *might* come home and beat your wife.. so Alcohol is more a drug 
                  than others, but it's more accepted into society
[20:16] <Rean> wrongly accepted
[20:16] <a-steve> I don't quite know what you mean by "thats like", Rean; but I do know about Rastafarians in Jamaica 
                  and other uses of other drugs in various "religions".
[20:17] <a-steve> Point taken, Kate . . . but beware of generalizations.  It is possible that some alcoholics are never 
                  really violent and that some potheads are.
[20:17] <Kate> well, it's more likely for an alcoholic to be violent then a pothead
[20:17] <a-steve> I don't understand your last comment, Rean.
[20:17] <a-steve> Is that based upon your personal observations, Kate?
[20:19] <Kate> mine, and some of other peoples.. and just a general thing, alot of people get really mellow when they use pot
[20:20] <a-steve> Is it at all possible that drugs may in fact have enhanced various societies, from time to time?  For instance, 
                  if we like The Beetles, must we accept that they did psychedelics in order to get where they went 
                  with their music?  Could they have done even better had they never used drugs at all?  Might they 
                  have instead gone nowhere?  I really don't know, but what do you think?
[20:20] <Phil> A lot of people tend to relax through alcohol as well, they both have a similar effect
[20:20] <Rean> nah i dont agree with that
[20:20] <a-steve> Rean, with what, please?
[20:21] <Rean> your last comment
[20:21] <Rean> it enhances nothing
[20:21] <Phil> Again, it depends on what you call drugs
[20:21] <a-steve> I made no comment.  I asked some related questions.  With what do you not agree?
[20:21] <Phil> Morphine, for example
[20:21] <a-steve> Phil, would you agree that morphine can be used correctly or can be abused?
[20:21] <Phil> Yes
[20:22] <Kate> I've never seen anyone relax through alcohol.. it either makes you happy or lovey dovey and in a mood to dance, 
                  or makes you violent..
[20:22] <a-steve> Were there no questions of legality involved, in various societies, might the same hold for other drugs, 
                  even so-called "recreational" ones?
[20:23] <Phil> Unfortunatly, there is no 'perfect drug'
[20:23] <Kate> what's the big deal about drugs unless they're deadly? like cocaine
[20:23] <Phil> If abused, they will all negativley effect you
[20:23] <Rean> they'll negatively affect you anyway
[20:23] <a-steve> Is any "recreational" drug use definitionally an abuse?
[20:24] <Kate> what if they actually for a time make you happier with life?
[20:24] <a-steve> Good question, Kate.
[20:25] <a-steve> If you use something that makes you happier for awhile, does that mean that ultimately you'll pay for it 
                  by being unhappy or disfunctional?
[20:25] <Rean> well you're supposed to be happy without the use of anything else
[20:26] <Rean> or, without anything that affects your brain in such a way that you feel happy
[20:26] <Rean> better way to put it
[20:26] <Phil> They're not really making you happier, the problems that are driving you to drug use are still there
[20:26] <Kate> but what if you can't be... some people turn to alcohol to make them happier.. what f others use drugs?
[20:26] <a-steve> Rean, you are sharing a philosophy with which many (if not most) people would agree.
[20:27] <a-steve> Phil, is it necessarily true that a person must have problems in order to decide to try drugs?  How about 
                  the question:  Don't we *all* have problems, whether or not we ever use drugs?
[20:29] <Phil> I was just making the point that people who take drugs to 'escape reality' or to make themselves happier are 
                  really deluding themselves
[20:29] <Kate> I know people who use drugs so they can hang out with certain people.. not to escape reality
[20:30] <a-steve> There are, nowadays, many experiments with loosening the enforcement of laws against recreational drugs 
                  such as marijuana; in Holland, England, and UK, for instance.  Why do you think there are people who   
                believe that decisions to use or not to use such drugs are personal, not to be legislated?  Might some 
                  societies function perfectly well with relaxation or elimination of laws against marijuana use, for instance?
[20:31] <a-steve> Or have we enough knowledge, in fact, to say that all such drugs should be forever banned, worldwide?
[20:31] <Kate> no because then people who might be making a bad mistake when they're young and stupid would be addicted because 
                  they're easier to get at... 
[20:31] <Phil> Steve, part of the reason for the decriminalisation of laws against Cannibis in the UK are so the police can 
                  concentrate on targeting the dealers, rather than the users
[20:31] <a-steve> So, Phil, you see that as a temporary situation, in order just to eliminate dealers?
[20:33] <Phil> The punishments for 'soft' drugs are too harsh in many countries, in my opinion. They should concentrate on more 
                  on rehabilitation, and less on punishment
[20:33] <Rean> the punishments are more often for the dealers and not the hardcore abusers
[20:34] <Rean> the dealers are rarely addicts
[20:36] <a-steve> Questionable Propositions:  Drug use is such a problem because people seem to enjoy the effects of taking 
                  "recreational" drugs.  The so-called "War on Drugs" has failed miserably; it merely fills up jails.  We will 
                  never be able to eliminate drug use around the world, so we should discover ways to guide people that do not 
                  end up incarcerating them or ruining their lives more than they are already doing to themselves.
[20:36] <a-steve> Rean, on what do you base your statement "Dealers are rarely addicts"?
[20:36] <Rean> statistics released a while ago
[20:37] <a-steve> Statistics from what nation?
[20:37] <Rean> was interesting to see that the majority of dealers arent drug users
[20:37] <a-steve> I'd be interested in seeing that.
[20:37] <Rean> SA narcotics bureau
[20:37] <Rean> i'll try to find it for you
[20:37] <a-steve> Related to South Africa only?
[20:38] <a-steve> OK, but please email it to me, as I must soon leave this chat.
[20:38] <Rean> i believe so yes
[20:38] <a-steve> I am not sure how widely to other nations around the world one can safely extrapolate the conclusions that might 
                  be inferred from those data, Rean.
[20:38] <Rean> we're not that unique ;)
[20:39] <a-steve> You have here a topic for discussion that is certainly worth pursuing!  I don't think it is to be resolved soon, 
                  however many good discussions we might have about it.
[20:39] <Kate> I know people at my school sell and don't use
[20:40] <a-steve> Rean, your laws may be so stringent that the effects are different from what they would be in, say, Holland, 
                  I think.
[20:40] <a-steve> Interesting, Kate.
[20:42] <a-steve> Our lives would certainly be much simpler were there no temptations or complications such as those related to 
                  "recreational" drug use.  But I think that every set of questions has many good perspectives from which each 
                  can be addressed.
[20:45] <a-steve> I think that too often we fall into traps of defining issues as "black/white", "right/wrong", "legal/illegal", 
                  and so on, taking sides as though playing games of tug-of-war, with winners v. losers.  Such questions as those 
                  surrounding drug usage need not be dismissed by facile agreement that only one view is correct.  That is what 
                  makes such discussions as these so very interesting, meaningful, and important to me -- whether or not we 
                  always agree on what ar 
[20:46] <a-steve> So, I must leave KidClub for now, wishing KidClub further discussions of a long list of interesting topics.
[20:47] <a-steve> Thanks, Rean, for coming up with meaningful things to talk about!  :-)
[20:47] <Rean> was Odd's idea ;)
[20:47] <a-steve> Well, I wish that Odd were taking part in it, then!  :-)
[20:48] <a-steve> And thanks to each of you for having, sharing, and defending your own points of view.
[20:48] <Phil> Bye Steve
[20:48] <a-steve> Bye, Phil and all.  :-)
[20:48] <Rean> see soon, steve
[20:48] <a-steve> thanks!  :-)
[20:48] <a-steve> thanks, Rean

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